Diplomacy Dojo Episode 1: Lots of Russia, a Little France27 min read

Intro 0:00  

The Diplomacy dojo is a weekly discussion led by Your Bored Brother about Diplomacy tactics and strategies. Let’s listen in on what our players are discussing this week…

BrotherBored 00:13 

Yeah, sure, I have my list here from the last week. I see here we had, “How to influence Western alliances as Russia,” and “How to solo as Russia in the Juggernaut.” Those look like the Russia-themed items here.

Hunter 0:28  

Yeah.

BrotherBored 0:28  

Are there any other topics you think we might cover today, Hunter?

Hunter 0:32  

Maybe getting Italy’s home centers when you’re playing France safely, or when you should do that, or if it’s necessary all the time.

BrotherBored 00:41 

Okay, well, let’s take it from there. So the first subject is how to influence Western alliances, such as an England-Germany Alliance, as Russia. My thought on this topic is to understand where your bargaining power lies as Russia and which powers you can influence in the beginning. Do you have an influence over Scandinavia? Because Russia is a northern power at the start, you’ve got a port in St. Petersburg. And what you’re trying to accomplish there is convincing at least one of your neighbors, England or Germany, preferably both, but at least one, that they have a reason to let you maintain your port in St. Petersburg, and it’s not better off just lying there, or being isolated, or just being destroyed by England. 

So when I’m Russia, and I’m thinking about how to influence the situation in the West, I usually start with Germany, because the first question in 1901 is, am I going to be able to get Sweden? And that’s pretty much at Germany’s discretion. Weaker German players, I think they tend to see a bouncing Russia at Sweden as an obvious or a must, and stronger German players usually presume that they’re going to let Russia into Sweden, and look for only a specific reason to prevent Russia from going into Sweden, so your approach may depend on the calibers of the players and their expectations. 

Weaker German players think that Germany’s expansion path is into Scandinavia because it looks easy and neutral. They see it as it easier to fight for Sweden than to, say, fight for London or Paris. That’s not very strategic because Sweden’s not a very tactically or strategically important center for Germany to get compared to some of those other locations. 

You can also influence England, but you have to have an English player who is amenable to the idea of concentrating an attack elsewhere. You’ll have a lot of English players who view the dynamic between England and Russia as one of hostility until either England conquers all Scandinavia and takes down St Petersburg, and then now we can be friends; or that Russia has to get consolidated control over the whole place and preventing them from expanding there and then England and move on to something else. That’s unfortunate, I don’t think it’s necessary for England and Russia to fight right off the bat, but they often will, because one of the players will think that’s how the situation has to unfold. 

One thing you can do to England is—for England to tolerate your presence in Scandinavia—is to offer to occupy Norway with an army. Because if you have an army in Norway, that can’t threaten England, England can leave the Norwegian Sea alone, England could even leave the North Sea if there’s nothing bordering the North Sea. 

And I think a lot of English players, like a smart player, would tolerate that. Like, hey, look, if Russia has only got an army in Norway, there’s no fleet anywhere near me, obviously, this isn’t a threat to me, I can agree to this. I think what this question is more meaningfully getting at, is how you can influence the political dynamic, and not so much the immediate tactical stuff, even though it’s where I took the question early on. 

And the fear of Russia is that an England-Germany Alliance forms and this alliance concentrates on taking out Russia immediately, either simultaneously with fighting France or possibly even as the first target, and so to undermine this, I think that you’ve got to create a belief in one of those players, maybe Germany, that England is not to be relied upon. This is challenging, but one way to do it is if the English player will open north and you convince the German player that this is bad, depends on the metagame. Personally, when I am German, if nobody’s opening to English channel it makes me very nervous. Well, that’s not very good for me, Germany. Maybe Russia is the better ally, but not every player will see it that way.

One threat you can do if neither England nor Germany seems very friendly is to withdraw from the north and just hang out in St. Petersburg to say, “Okay, I’m just going to park that starting fleet at St. Petersburg and yeah, I can’t hold on to it forever, but I could support hold it with an army for a long time, and then you guys will have nothing better to do.” You won’t be able to take me down, and then England and Germany may consider each other the bigger threat. So if you make a big fight for Scandinavia that England and Germany have to concentrate a lot of units on taking you down, they may see the thing through and try to finish you off at St. Petersburg, and continue on to attack you at Warsaw or Moscow, your home centers. But if you withdraw very early, if the writing’s on the wall, like Germany bounced you out of Sweden and is going to help England, it looks like that’s what’s going to happen, then withdraw your fleet to St. Petersburg and say, “Okay, you guys figure out who wants Scandinavia, I don’t care anymore. I’m not participating, come back when you actually want my help, and maybe I’ll help somebody out.” Then England and Germany may decide to prioritize fighting France or each other over taking down St. Petersburg.

Do you have more thoughts about this, Hunter?

Hunter 5:50  

Well, one thing as England, I mean, I’m not actually against Russia taking Norway with an army, but sometimes I feel like, I mean, I really need a few units to successfully attack France. I don’t have any issue with the army there, but it’s like, you know, can I hold on, like, could Russia just leave it alone until I’m able to take one of France’s centers?

BrotherBored 6:10  

So if you’ve captured Norway in 1901, then you have three fleets as England. And so in for me, personally, I have usually in most games, I am using all three of those fleets to fight France, if possible. I’m using the fleet in the North Sea to fight for Belgium or to control Belgium or make sure France doesn’t get it, and the other two fleets to fight France. 

And the army in Norway, if I’ve convoyed it there, which I usually do, I’m often looking for an opportunity to convoy it somewhere else, that it can be better used, either convoy it to Belgium or possibly even double convoying it into Picardy or to Brest or something. And then at that point, if I get a replacement center like Belgium or Brest or Paris to offset the loss of Norway, I don’t really care what happens to Norway after that. Because then at that point, I have four units, or at least three if I’m using the fleet in reserve to just guard the North Sea for fighting France.

Hunter 7:03  

So what if I take Belgium, then, do you think it’s—if I have Belgium, you think three fleets, that’s totally enough to attack France? My home centers?

BrotherBored 7:10  

So in your mind, if we’re using a bunch of units to fight for Scandinavia, does that bigger number of units give you more units for fighting France? Because for me, every unit I’m sending to fight for Scandinavia is a negative unit against fighting France. So like if I put a fleet in the North Sea, a fleet in the Norwegian Sea and an army in Norway, that’s maybe zero units for fighting France; and then if I move the fleet in the North Sea to Skagerrak and my build, let’s say I built in London or Edinburgh and I backfill North Sea, now I’ve got a fleet in Norwegian, a fleet in North, a fleet in Skagerrak, and an army in Norway. And I can take Sweden, let’s say. Okay, now I’ve got five units, haha! But all my other units are committed to fighting for Scandinavia, so the number of units that are available for fighting France is one or maybe zero. 

Capturing more centers doesn’t necessarily translate into a bigger effective force for fighting France. And I think that maybe, I think we’re actually getting somewhere, and I’m understanding your thinking a little bit. This is why I think that it is so dangerous for England to commit to fighting for Scandinavia early on. As more and more of your units are committed to holding on to these gains that you made, you’re not really any better off. Let’s say that you’ve blocked Russia from getting Scandinavia, but that’s not a strategically valuable goal, compared to France, which now may be able to attack you with your back door wide open. 

So if I’m England, and I concentrate against France first, and I succeed in bringing France down—like we take out Brest and France is reduced to maybe two or three centers—that’s a player who’s now no longer a threat to me. And meanwhile, if Russia has gained Scandinavia, so what? That’s not necessarily a disaster. Maybe Russia is going to go after Germany next. Maybe Russia doesn’t have the extra units to come after me. Whereas, if I successfully conquer Scandinavia, what’s France doing meanwhile? Is there some Scandinavia that France can go after while I fight Russia? No, it’s just me. France is just going to come directly after me, unless they go after another player. So because there’s something to occupy Russia’s time, and there are gains that Russia could make, I am more trusting that Russia might not necessarily come after me, and that a fight with Russia is something I can do later. I don’t feel the same way about a fight with France.

Hunter 9:38  

Alright, so should we move on to soloing as Russia and Turkey?

BrotherBored 9:41  

Yeah, sure, so this is how to solo as Russia in the Juggernaut, or did you want to talk about soloing Russia in general?

Hunter 09:49 

Yeah, how about in general.

BrotherBored 09:50 

In my view, Russia is the most unusual of all seven powers in the ways that Russia can get a solo win. So Russia can be kind of like a boom-or-bust power, where Russia might expand, only to be crushed on one other side of the map. And so where I’m going with this is that to solo win, Russia needs to make significant gains on both sides. And I think that a great way to do that is to make a gain on one side of the map, in either the north or the south; use that to build a unit on either side, but maybe switching sides is the way to go; then gain another center somewhere else, get a build and build a unit that can help you on the other side. 

By alternating between north and south, or alternating between the building where your next gain seems likely to come from, that can put you on a path to a solo win, because now you have a presence on both halves of the map. And if you make gains, you can make these strategic choices about where to build them. A mistake that players sometimes make as Russia is that they concentrate entirely on one side of the map. Like let’s say they go all south, they build all armies keep going south, they fight—

Hunter 11:06  

Yeah, I think that’s a mistake I’ve made in the past.

BrotherBored 11:08  

And tell me why; tell me why you think that has been a mistake.

Hunter 11:12  

I’m not really sure. I mean, I had Sweden and Norway, so I just kind of thought, okay, I’ll just move south now. I guess I probably should have built more fleets though, in the north.

BrotherBored 11:22  

I think what happens is you’re going to run out of the room. Because Russia doesn’t have many chances of capturing all the Italian home centers or Tunis, and so it’s very difficult to reach 18 supply centers by expanding so heavily in the south. Even if you get all of Austria, all the Balkans, all of Turkey, that still doesn’t add up to 18, even with your home centers. You’re going to have to have some captures elsewhere. And what would be exciting for me about getting such a big expansion in the south, and wiping out these neighbors, is that I have the opportunity to build a lot of fleets in the north, because if I could build three or four fleets in the north, suddenly, whoo, there are all these options. I could go into Denmark, I could go into Edinburgh. I could get these centers that Russia doesn’t normally get to on a typical game because I was able to get such a big fleet presence. 

And if you get a gigantic fleet presence in the north, somehow, you could end up rolling up most of the centers there, so that even if you get pushed back out of the Balkans or something, you can offset that by overwhelming other positions in the north, because there aren’t very many defensible positions, let alone any stalemate lines that run through the North that way. That’s unusual, I mean, it’s unusual to have more than two fleets in the north, honestly. No power in the north particularly likes seeing Russia build that many fleets, that antagonizes them. I mean, maybe a southern power feels comfortable with you doing that, those are going north.

Hunter 12:56  

Notice a lot of the Russia solos that I’ve looked at, they have a strong fleet presence in the north, like four or five fleets up there.

BrotherBored 13:03  

Yes, that is correct; and the strategic conundrum is, how the heck do you accomplish that? Because at the beginning of the game fleets in the north are not going to help you that much. They’re not very good for defensive purposes; it antagonize your neighbors. I think that this strategy for Russia is to use your political abilities, your diplomatic abilities, as much as possible to secure your flanks, or you can concentrate on just bringing down one power. That’s why Russia stinks in Gunboat, because you don’t have the ability to convince anybody with words to just leave you alone.

Hunter 13:45  

Yeah. Do you feel Turkey or Austria is a better ally for Russia?

BrotherBored 13:51  

The better ally for Russia is probably Turkey, because Turkey can hope to expand all the way out to the west without invading Russia, and Russia would only have to be taken down towards the end of the match. In terms of the long-term game, Austria is going to run out of room eventually, and it has a bigger incentive to backstab Russia earlier than Turkey does, in my opinion. However, in the short run, Austria is the more powerful ally. If you’re allied to Austria, you’ll probably bring down Turkey and Germany relatively early; and that’s nothing to sniff at, the ability to take down those powers pretty early. In the short run, Austria is a really good ally, which might be one of the stronger to power alliances. At the immediate beginning of the game, I think Austria-Russia is really strong two power alliance. But in the long run, Austria is probably going to betray you faster than Turkey. 

Hunter 15:02 

I see. Yeah, so I guess that’s Turkey. I mean, I guess as Turkey, the idea is you go—usually, so in a Juggernaut I go west, I take a center like Marseille; I think you’re right, actually, I think after I take Marseille that’s the time to stab Russia instead of waiting longer.

BrotherBored 15:29  

That’s around the time, that’s my rule of thumb is that the opportunity to backstab an ally that’s been a long-term ally, is on the same turn where I have conquered a defensible center on the far side of the stalemate line. Like to do that all at once. So on the same turn, that I would capture Marseille, that’s the term that I would probably start backstabbing Russia and try to take out some of the centers that they’ve captured in the Balkans, get three builds, then use those builds to take down Sevastopol and Rumania, or something like that.

Hunter 16:05  

Yeah, that sounds good.

BrotherBored 16:10  

As Turkey, I find an alliance with Russia to be the only viable long-term alliance of my neighbors. An alliance with Austria or Italy, that’s very temporary. The only reason it would last to the end of the game is that the players are carebears or they have no choice, the other alliances are, are too strong. But in terms of being able to play with one ally that I got in 1901, all the way until the last couple of turns of the game, Russia’s that power of those three neighbors. Because Turkey can expand all the way over to Iberia before having to attack Russia. That Alliance is maybe overrated in terms of how powerful it is as the, “Oh, the Juggernaut! Oh my god, we’re going to, it’s going to kill us all, watch out!” I don’t think that, I don’t think it’s a particularly powerful two power Alliance, but what it is, is very stable. It can last a long time; and that’s why maybe the alliance has a reputation for being so threatening, it is because it can last so long.

Hunter 17:19  

Yeah, that’s true.

BrotherBored 17:25  

If I felt like I had my pick between Austria and Turkey as Russia: either one. They both seem like friendly players, they both seem like they really do want to be my ally, I like them both, so it’s basically my choice. The way I would assess the situation strategically is, how badly do I need immediate power or how much do I think I can slow play the game? So for example, if I think that there’s an England-Germany Alliance forming, then I’m going to pick Austria as my preferred ally because Austria can help me come in there and we can blast Germany in 1902. Like very early on, we could handle that. Whereas Turkey will give me no assistance in that regard. Turkey will not help me in any way against England and Germany, that’s just not possible. Austria can. But if I feel pretty safe, like you know Germany’s cooperating with me, I feel like I’m going into Sweden, Scandinavia’s relatively safe and maybe I want to play for the long term, then Turkey might be the better ally because that alliance can last such a long time and the payoff is bigger in the long run. Does that make sense? 

Hunter 18:40  

Yeah, okay, great.

BrotherBored 18:44  

Okay, so we’ve got, we kind of covered this Juggernaut stuff. We have this last item which is getting Italy’s home centers when playing as France, when and how? That’s fascinating. 

So if you can somehow get all of Italy’s home centers, that is an incredibly—it’s a turbocharged situation for France, as you said early on. Because although to stalemate, the Italian peninsula from the west requires a little more than this, in practice it’s really hard for this defense to be overcome. If you have an army in Piedmont to support hold a unit in Venice, and you have a fleet in let’s say Apulia, to support hold a fleet in the Ionian Sea, or maybe the fleets in Naples or Tyrrhenian or something, that’s very, very difficult for an eastern power to overcome. Because your position in Venice can only be overpowered by an army in Tyrolia, a unit in Trieste, and a fleet in Adriatic Sea; and there usually isn’t a fleet in the Adriatic Sea, and to get one into Adriatic Sea when there isn’t, is challenging. So that’s probably secure; and then to break through your defenses in Ionian Sea, requires three fleets lined up, like let’s say, Eastern Mediterranean, Aegean in Greece, or maybe one in Albania. And as a defending Eastern power, or a hostile Eastern power starts lining up for that, if necessary, you can send in another fleet to come in from Marseille or from Western Mid Atlantic Ocean to come in and start supporting the Ionian sea. You can see it coming.

And in practice, there may not even be three fleets in the east that are capable, even theoretically, of breaking through the Ionian Sea. So with those positions, you can use the four units that you earned from Venice, Rome, Naples, and Tunis to defend all those gains. In other words, you as France have become, in effect, a fake Italy, who’s got Italy’s four units and four centers, and they’re all added to your supply center count, bringing you closer to 18. And you know for a fact that this fake Italy is never going to attack you because it’s you! So then you can continue on to play as France with your other five or six units as normal, and just use those four units. So what if you get into that situation, that’s awesome. That’s extremely strong. I’ve been in that situation a few times, and I felt very powerful. Probably won from that position, at least a couple of times. 

Now, the question is, maybe, how do you make that happen, and how do you perceive that you have a chance? So continuing to work backward from the state that you’re looking for, to make that happen, you probably want to wait for a situation where Italy has been overextended, and you, France, are not threatened by an attack from England. So let’s say that England is committed to fighting in the northeast, but it doesn’t look like that battle is going to wrap up anytime soon. Like, let’s say England’s fighting both Germany and Russia, and it looks like that battle is going to last a while. So that means England’s not going to send units after you, or at least not that many, and even if England eventually does after making those  conquests, there’ll be some time before that happens. Okay, Hmm, maybe this is my opportunity.

Well, if Italy has their units, as like an army and Piedmont and a fleet and the Tyrrhenian Sea, forget about it. Because you have to make these hostile movements against Italy really early on, Italy can see it coming because your movements are several moves away from getting into Italy’s positions. But let’s say instead, Italy’s got an army off on some adventure in Bohemia, and a fleet in the Ionian Sea and Eastern Mediterranean Sea, and an army in Apulia that looks like it’s about to convoy to Syria, well, well, well. Italy is really out of position. So if that exists, and England looks otherwise occupied with some other business to attend to, this may be your opportunity to invade, because you can move an army from Marseille to Piedmont and then to Tuscany; and follow up with another army that goes from Burgundy to Marseille to Piedmont, and then all of Italy’s defenses start breaking down. Because once you get an army or two slithering down there, down the boot, while Italy’s out of position and doesn’t have armies that are capable of defending, even if Italy convoys that army back, let’s say, from Syria to Apulia, you’ve already started taking their home centers, and their defense is going to collapse. Then meanwhile, you can send fleets to go after Tunis or something. That’s probably how the situation will shakedown, if you were able to conquer all of Italy.

I did play a game one time where the Italian player wanted to be my janissary, as they say, and did whatever I said, and so I talked that player into just walking out of their centers, and I destroyed Italy in like a turn or two. I’m sharing that story because that was a high-level game, and that was a pretty strong player who I did that with, so it was that wasn’t just like a fluke because the player was naive or something. It is possible to use the power of your press to arrange a situation where Italy is vulnerable. And at the time, I thought that England was relatively committed to fighting in the north, but as soon as I had finished conquering Italy, that English player freaked out and started attacking me, and we made different alliances, and whatnot. Perhaps the right move for England.

Hunter 24:46  

Yeah, it might have been too late for them though.

BrotherBored 24:52  

That match ended up in a draw between me, England, and Turkey.

Hunter 24:56  

I see.

BrotherBored 25:01  

It’s not in any way common. It’s not common, it’s not easy.

Hunter 25:07  

I think I might be able to pull this off though. So what if I can convince Italy to just get some armies into both Tyrolia and Bohemia?

BrotherBored 25:15  

That will get you somewhere for sure. This has to be happening at the same time that you have some units that are tactically positioned so that you can get an army, ideally into the boot area, that you’ll get an army to Piedmont and then to Tuscany or, and then to Rome or Venice. That’s key to getting the home centers. Taking Tunis from Italy isn’t nearly so difficult, you can just send a couple of fleets sometimes and sort of sneak your way into Tunis or surprise attack it, but getting all the home centers is another story, and that usually requires an army or is much easier tactically speaking if you have an army.

Hunter 25:57  

So how soon should I do this?  Should I just try this in 1902. Is that crazy? Probably…

BrotherBored 26:05  

I mean, if the board— I don’t think it has anything to do with the number of turns that’s been in the game, but rather what’s happening with the strategic posture of each of the powers. Because you’re taking an awful risk by sending units so far away, to go fight Italy. But if it doesn’t work, and you don’t make captures, your defenses will be much lowered, and Germany and/or England could break through your home centers, and that’ll be the end of you. And it also won’t work if Italy puts up a defense. Italy can defend pretty reasonably well, like if Italy sees it coming and puts a fleet in Tunis and a fleet in Tyrrhenian sea, an army in Tuscany, an army in Piedmont, that’s going to require so much commitment from you, of fleets, to break through somehow. And even if you do that, even if you send all the units necessary to break through that by force, you won’t be the one to get the Italian centers. It’ll be somebody else, so it’s usually not worth it if Italy sees it coming.

Hunter 27:14  

If I have fleets on the south coast of Spain and the Mid Atlantic would Italy see it coming?

BrotherBored 27:20  

Maybe not, it depends on how you can sell it. Like if you’re in a tactical situation where Spain South Coast is supported holding Mid Atlantic ocean or something, most Italian players won’t like it because they know that South Coast can move to Western Mediterranean, and Mid Atlantic Ocean come up to North Africa, and all of a sudden you’re making a supported attack on Tunis in the autumn, and there goes Tunis. One way you could do it is to get into position by moving in your fleets into position towards Italy on the same turn that you believe Italy is going to commit heavily towards fighting someone else. So if you think Italy is going to move to Adriatic Sea, or Ionian or Aegean sea and get their fleets really committed towards that way, and at that exact same turn, you move your fleet from the Mid Atlantic Ocean to Western Med and from Brest to Mid Atlantic Ocean, all of a sudden, “Oh crap.” You know, that’s how Italy’s feeling, because Italy just committed everything to going in that direction just only to be attacked by France. Of course, you don’t want that to be you, the victim of this situation where you commit to attacking Italy at the exact same time that England attacks you or something like that.

It’s not common. It’s not something that I really, for me personally, I wouldn’t set out with a plan in mind that I’m going to attack Italy. That’s something that I would observe opportunistically. Like hey, this is that rare situation where maybe invading Italy’s the thing to do because, like, England’s doing this, Germany is doing this. I think it’ll work.

Hunter 29:02  

Okay, that sounds good. 

BrotherBored 29:04  

Well, alright, we’re coming to the end of the time allocated for the Dojo today anyway. It’s been a pleasure, Hunter. I sometimes like the one-on-one Dojos a little more, there’s more conversation and we’re going back and forth. I really appreciate your coming today. And I enjoyed talking about these topics. And I hope you have the time to come in next week.

Hunter 29:27  

Yeah, I enjoyed it as well.

BrotherBored 29:30  

Alright, see you around.

Outro 29:36  

If you enjoyed this episode, remember to subscribe and review the podcast. To learn more from your bored brother and to participate in the dojo, visit the blog at brotherbored.com or the Patreon at bit.ly/supportybb. Thanks to loyalty freak music for the theme music, It feels good to be alive too.